Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

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SpectrumOldi
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Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by SpectrumOldi » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:30 am

Boriel's IDE is good on its own, but I would prefer to develop in Next Basic, the native basic.
It would also be good if it includes a compiler which allows for commercial development.
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varmfskii
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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by varmfskii » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:36 pm

It seems to me that the focus on development tools should be on 1) Linux (so they can also me run on the Pi accelerator) and 2) Native on the ZX Spectrum Next. Of course anyone who is developing such tools is going to do it for the hardware that best suits them. If my IDE utilizes an emulator, I would target Zesaurx rather than CSpect because Zesaurx is cross platform.
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SpectrumOldi
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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by SpectrumOldi » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:29 pm

varmfskii wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:36 pm
It seems to me that the focus on development tools should be on 1) Linux (so they can also me run on the Pi accelerator) and 2) Native on the ZX Spectrum Next. Of course anyone who is developing such tools is going to do it for the hardware that best suits them. If my IDE utilizes an emulator, I would target Zesaurx rather than CSpect because Zesaurx is cross platform.
If they want to get more software and games made for the Next it must be available on Windows. Linux is so small it's not even a niche OS. The average Windows user won't install Linux just for Next development.
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varmfskii
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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by varmfskii » Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:52 pm

Anyone who is serious about development for the next is likely to have the Pi accelerator. The logical place to run an IDE that is more heavyweight than the ZX Next can handle native is on the Pi. The Pi runs Linux.

In addition, If you write your tools using reasonable technologies, porting from Linux to Windows and MacOS is relatively easier. People developing on Windows are far more likely to use technologies that make it difficult to port to other platforms.
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Ped7g
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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by Ped7g » Tue Feb 05, 2019 9:58 pm

I think there will be multiple tools for Next available, some leaning more toward windows, some more toward being portable... (I personally have only linux machines at home, so my preference is obvious)... and I don't think there will be single "go to" package suited for everyone, as people prefer different tools and UI. I can sense a good-will underlying your comment, and logic, but that alone is not enough to make such tooling available.

Then again *"The average Windows user won't install Linux just for Next development."* - why not? It's few more click and it's free. I'm certainly not going to install windows, as that's not free and requires license and source code is not [easily] available. But setting up virtual machine with linux is like one evening job, if you didn't do it before (or 2-3h including customization and setup, if you know what you are doing, bare install is like 10-30min). Then again most of the "linux" tools are often written in portable way, often having windows binaries directly provided by author, or you can compile them yourself. I mean, as a windows user you will have probably much higher chance to run all of the tools, including linux ones (contrary to linux users). You are just missing modern OS goodies.

Also you are not dealing with "average users" as users, but SW developers. The core team will surely want to cater for newcomers and give them some reasonable kick-off on the machine itself, including Next BASIC and manual, but that's long way from "commercial development" and it will still take huge effort on their side to deliver even that startup pack (especially in similar quality like the machine case :) ).

While seasoned Spectrum developers are not truly depending on any external tools, they were writing games back in times, when many of them wrote at least one own assembler in their life, not only not afraid to create their own tools, but often stubbornly preferring it precisely that way, writing everything own and from scratch.

Considering what tools are currently already available (z88dk, pasmoNext, CSpect, snasm, Boriel IDE, ...), I think one who is determined to actually create something on Next can and will find a way. If none of those tools fit your needs perfectly, and you would rather wait until such perfect one emerges, I'm afraid that may be also lack of the required determination level. Because developing for Next will have quite some learning curve. The ZX machines are quite easy to learn basics (I would say even considerably easier than modern educational platforms), but difficult to master (and I don't think any tool alone will ever close that gap completely, surely good tools will help, but there's lot more to it).

I would recommend to try Next BASIC first to do some introductory tinkering, and not to worry about compilers for the moment. It may give you better idea for later, what precisely you need, and explore further tools later.

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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by varmfskii » Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:04 pm

Of the tools specifically mentioned: z88dk runs under Linux, but on the Pi is hard so far; pasmoNext easy to run under Linux, no problems on Pi; CSpect runs using on mono on Linux, haven't succeeded in running it on the Pi; snasm, don't know; Biriel IDE, so far as I know Windows only.

Small tools that I have made mostly for my own use are command line tools that I have developed and run under Linux, but should be trivial to build under other environments.
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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by Alcoholics Anonymous » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:27 am

z88dk has been compiled for the pi0 and I believe Tim has been trying it on the next. But I would be very surprised if the optimizing compiler (zsdcc) can run at a reasonable speed on the pi0. The other compiler (sccz80) and the assembler / linker tools should be ok though.

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sol_hsa
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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by sol_hsa » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:39 pm

Define reasonable? ;)

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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by Ped7g » Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:56 pm

You have enough reasons to wait until the compilation does finish... :D

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Re: Wanted: a good IDE for Next Basic dev in Windows

Post by varmfskii » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:39 pm

I've had trouble getting zsdcc to compile on the Pi and ticks runs out of memory on compile.
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